Apologize

[Cavallo]

I'd like to formally apologize to everyone. I certainly could have handled certain things better and this is no excuse, but I was hacing a rather crummy day and overreacted. So Brave, I apologize if you felt I attacked you, it was not my intention. To Cruisey I don't want to taint your win because I know how special those are and to anyone else who may feel I was being rude.

To step back here I would still like to personally address things with judging.

I have indeed noticed a trend. Horses that have been performing well, mainly looking at juveniles here, have been punished for running well by poor placings in judging when other juveniles who are not as strong are entered in races, most cases HOTY* races. I think we need to make this clear. Not all horses will be HOTY* quality horses and I think that we are all beginning to understand that, me more than anyone because I'm the old fart here from the days when there was less competition and with a little time and effort could grade up to the big games, but that is not the case here anymore.

Horses, and not just talking about juveniles here, horses that are being entered into these quality races and not performing well should take advantage of the undercards. There is NOTHING wrong with undercard races and they should be utilized to build your horses. There is a difference between consistent HOTY runners and undercard runners. I think we can acknowledge this. Now horses that are building in the undercards can and should increase in their performance to work their way up to the HOTY* levels, but please keep in mind that this is a climbing process. Some will get there and some won't, but horses running in those upper levels on a consistent basis should not be penalized in the judging because the judged feels bad for the undercard horse needing "spotlight". I'm not saying that there isn't upsets, but I am asking everyone to make sure that you are closely looking at the past history and current history of the horses you are judging.

Everything is a learning curve right now for all of us and I know we have all experience frustration with placings and horses not being where they think they should, but please learn from my poor example and don't lash out. Let's discuss things calmly and all work together as we adjust to learn how to accommodate all these changes and the influx of horses and competition.

Once again, I apologize to those I may have offended and hope that we can all move forward to continue to create a happy and fun experience here on The Wire.

[Cruisey]

It's alright, Cav. You didn't taint my win lol. I've noticed that too with a few of my horses as well, mainly the older ones actually that I have been undercarding so they grade up. Unfortunately, there's always the horse that I run them against that has more HOTY races than them, which kinda is frustrating. So I understand where you're coming from! I think Fin and Sonny have a feuding rivalry that has been budding since their juvenile season, I wouldn't be surprised if he romped past Sonny at any point soon ;)

[LK]

Alright now I can see this is aimed towards the race that I judged last week. I judge differently from a lot of people and now it's come back to bite me in the butt several times. I have my reasons and they always piss people off. Yes i do favor the underdogs, but if I didn't how would they ever have a chance at getting to HOTY levels? If one horse keeps winning consistently and every HOTY race they're entered in, no one else is going to have a shot. That is not at all realistic. So I think I just need to bow out of judging.

[Kenren]

I think all we're trying to say is that there ARE standout horses sometimes. It's also just a consistency thing. If a horse has been placing in the money constantly even against this tough competition this year, they shouldn't just suddenly make a drop to 4th or 5th just in order to give others a chance. Especially in juveniles, if they're not cutting it in the HOTYs, they need to run undercards. I have a good couple of juvies already that are just running undercards. And there's nothing wrong with that! Look at what Take Flight did last year, and that was mostly undercards.

It's natural for groups of horses to separate themselves from others. Like Cav said, not every horse is HOTY-race material. They'll go in and out of favor. Flawed Princess, for example, worked up a HUGE undercard winning streak before she could even be looked at as 'eligible' for the big HOTYs by judges. We all love an underdog, but in HOTY races those underdog wins should be much fewer and far between, because the horses that are favorites in those races have earned that spot. But every field is different and we're just saying that a good horse shouldn't be punished for being good.

I think we just want people to sit back, get some perspective, and remember to look at class and what the horse has done. And heck, sometimes all it takes is to give LESS feedback when you judge xD You should have reasons to back up why a horse won, especially if they pull an upset - if you can't think of anything, then they probably shouldn't win xD They'll get their chance with a carefully selected race and field. That's on the owner to get right, not the judge. But you don't have to explain the very minutiae of why horses placed where they did, unless the person asks for it. I find that when people do that, that's when everyone else gets upset because the finer details seem nitpicky. I generally just put the gist of why I placed them the way I did, and done. BUT yeah, overall my two cents.

[creativecause]

But the problem with juveniles as well is that the majority of them that run in the HOTY races still run the undercards, I've found it quite difficult this year to get any of my juveniles to do anything, most them are still sitting with one win because of it too. Maybe I feel that way because I had a stellar group of juveniles last year but I do agree that you should look at the class of a horse while judging. However, you should also take into account the reality of it all... in real horse racing upsets happen a lot. Maybe not huge ones but the favorites or the best looking horses in the field don't always win. It's unfair to judge like that because what is going to happen is soon this horse is 'invincible' and no one is going to have that horse lose, because, well they have that much more class over everyone. And I do hate it when my horse that has been busting its butt and winning HOTY races gets beat by some underdog horse.... but in the end it is a virtual game and I shouldn't take it personally, I should try harder and work harder with that horse because that's all you can really do. 
I personally like upsets, and every once in awhile it comes back to bite me in the butt but it's a virtual game guys. We get defensive over our horses because in our eyes they can do no wrong but we need to quit taking placings so personally I don't think anyone here is purposefully trying to make a horse look bad just because they're mad at someone. We need to take in account more than just a horses record, like for me when I judge the record and experience do play a part but if there is three die hard front runners and a closer and then a horse that sits mid-pack or something, I assure you the possibility that one of those three die hard front runners win is slim, I'll place second or third but it's not happening because in a real race that pace meltdown would be insane.
Anyways, I don't think any one means to purposefully place horses badly, we all have different opinions on how races should be run, and there's nothing wrong with that, it makes the game more realistic.

[Kenren]

And those are all totally valid reasons for underdogs to win xD And everyone is on edge, I agree, because there are just more horses around and so many different judging styles. I think we should all just go take a look at the judging guidelines again, let them soak in a bit, then keep going on our way xD

[Cavallo]

No lacee you're wrong this is NOT directed at you. This is a trend that I've had even other people approach me personally about in private messages! It is not you personally and I think that you read this to personally.

What Kenny said is perfect. We just need to make sure we're reading the guidelines and if you're going to place an upset have a valid reason.

[LK]

And after that I will never judge again. It's getting more and more obvious that everyone hates my judging and that I purposely placed a horse lower in a field. No, I did not. I have no grudge against any horse here and honestly it's pissing me off that I'm trying to help out with judging and then get yelled at for it. That is how I saw the placings and that is how I'm going to leave it. I gave my feedback to the people who asked and now they're calling me out on it. That is one sure way to make me leave this site. Because now I'm feeling like the every time I judge a race, someone's going to jump down my throat because "I didn't take everything into consideration". So I won't be judging anymore races. Don't ask me to again.

[LK]

And yes, I did take it personally because you called me out Cavvy. You quoted what I told you about why I placed Dominion where it did.

[Cavallo]

No. That phrase of spotlight and was the first thing that popped into my brain. It has been used by more than one person when judging and I'm sorry you feel that way. It wasn't my intention and I apologize. Obviously no one can make you judge and that is your choice but please do not get hostile with me and the other members because you perceived this as a personal attack on you when it was NEVER intended that way.

On another note: if I was going to yell at anyone for something I would personally message that person and voice my concerns there, not publicly call someone out and if you think I would do that to you than I am offended that you would think so little of me. I have helped you and aided you since your return here and if you think I'm blowing up because of ONE race you judged then you have severely misjudged me and my character and professionalism as an admin.

[Kenren]

Lacee, that's really an unfair overreaction. Even if she were to talk about one race that you judged, that doesn't mean she's attacking you. She's using it as an example. We're not the type of site or community to attack anyone the way you seem to be taking this. She's just trying to address things that may have swung away from our established judging guidelines.

[Deleted]

Okay I'm going to step in here and say my two cents as well. Cavvy, No worries, I'm by no means offended by anything you said. I have no problem talking about judgements/placings in the races I judge, and I think that each of our ability to talk openly about how we place and judge horses is fundamental to us all having a fair and fun time here at the Wire. And I do see and understand your frustration, with special attention given to the Juvenile field.

 That being said, I think it's inappropriate for anyone to get offended and angry about anything Cavallo has said. She is an excellent admin who cares a lot about this site, and if she sees a problem that has occurred it's most definitely her job to address it. Now I am all for having a nice and calm discussion about this, but that's going to be impossible if people start getting mad because they think others are attacking them. In my experience with Cav, she has always been very kind and helpful towards all the members of this site, especially towards new members and helping them start new barns and bloodlines. If anything, I think the person owed an apology is Cav xD

As for this "trend" as it is being called, I have to say I very much agree with what CC is saying. I think I read a horse racing statistic somewhere that says the favorite wins the race less than ten percent of the time. The juvenile field right now is also a very intense one to navigate, there is a lot more noticeable competition in this year alone than in I think any other past year, so there is a large influx of new horses all fighting through the lower ranks. In this case, as CC said, I think it is necessary for the entirety of each individual horse/race type to be looked at in addition to the horses record. Every new field and race run each year is therefore unique, and much like in real life, a race can never be guaranteed. In regards to that, this is of course not real life. Seeing as we don't actually have ponies to race around (unfortunately) it is very necessary to adhere to the guidelines we have for judging.

I think what is causing the huge problem right now is that the judging guidelines are very vague in addressing how to judge a race, and that when it is actually put into practice, it does not reflect what you read. Judging moves away from what is written and adapts its own personal and unique spin based on the member who is judging, and while there is nothing wrong with that, It leads to various results that do not sit right with various people, because they themselves judge races differently. I think, especially do to the large number of people that are now entering into the site, that perhaps a clearer explanation of the judging guideline should be looked over/rewritten. I definitely remember that when I first joined, about a year ago, one of the things I struggled the most with was grasping just how to judge races, and for a while people were also very uncertain with the style of how I judged. I think a lot of problems would be eliminated with more concise rules.

Anyways, this is just some of my findings/opinions. I really do think that we should not turn on each other though. This is an issue that we should all feel free to talk about and discuss without attacking each other, and I think it's safe to assume that anything brought up and mentioned in this thread is not meant to single out and offend other people.

[Kenren]

I do 100% get what you guys are saying in terms of realistic stuff. And I think the rules are somewhat meant to be vague, because we DO want creative license in judging. If everyone judges the exact same way, that's incredibly boring. I think what we're seeing now in the results isn't necessarily a change as far as people judging 'incorrectly', if I step back and look at it. I think it's just a transition that's happening naturally because of the influx of horses, and it's hard for people who've been around longer because it's just so different from what we've seen. In the past, a horse that's only gotten first and second places would almost never suddenly get a 4th or 5th place. They might steadily decline to it, but not just BAM, you're out of the money. Before, we would consider that as a judging mistake somewhere. And perhaps it is now, and perhaps it's just something of the times. But either way, we'll get over it xD

[Isabelle]

I will just briefly speak up here about my thoughts on the horse placements. I do see things that are not consistent, I wonder if we need some new guidelines or to spruce up the old ones? I think everyone can say that for the most part until Y15 I've been pretty much an underdog, undercard racer. One of the best examples I can give is Lucky. If you look at this three year old season, I entered him in 11 HOTY races in 24 total races that year, and he never won one. He gained experience, I was assuming, in the World Colt Cup, Breeder's Cup, Preakness, and others. But if you look closely, his last win was an undercard win July 3rd Y14, and with all those 11 HOTY races where he should have gained experience, he fell flat. I have given him all but one undercard races this year, and he only just got a first place. Umm...I'm sorry, but after 11 starts in HOTY races why on earth couldn't he win a few undercard races? I'm not saying he should be a grade one superstar, but it took him from July W3 Y14 until April W4 Y15 for a single undercard win. I was ready to retire him if he made it a full year of racing without a win, and I still might after this year because it boils down to just plain not being fair. If HOTY WINS ONLY count, why on earth do people say that the horse gains experience just running in one? Yes of course winning an HOTY ups the class, but a horse that runs in 11 HOTY races and can't hardly win one undercard race in a field or two or three horses?

Other of my horses are also inconsistent, but I feel as usual all horses in normal racing would go up and down in their wins and losses, but sometimes things stick out as a little odd. I also see this happening now in the prospect races, take for example what just happened with Eternally Smoldering. I was shocked at his sixth placement in his last prospect, he won a HOTY prospect, the BBT best bred tournament, placed in a HOTY, and placed in an undercard. I'm not saying he should have won, but a drop to sixth place?

I also see a lot of favoritism going on around here sometimes, and it seems that certain people just don't think a horse can win or be a winner who isn't a full blown competitive hot head of a monster. Take my Cutie for a last example, she has been doing very badly and people hated her picture so I changed her color and picture, and I realize this is only prospect stuff but I almost want to give her a career ending injury and let her brood instead of race from the comments I get from her. She consistently places last or close to it, and although I don't believe every horse can be the number one obviously it just strikes me that no one likes her from the comments I get, so I feel she will be at a disadvantage. I love her personality-I made it. But if others won't give her a fair shot because of her picture? Or because she's quieter and not an insane run for the wire until you drop type I'm afraid she will have a very poor racing career.

Now I am still struggling to learn the ins and outs of which races are the best to enter into and how things are weighted and such, and so far Moonlight is the best I've done, I've put so much time into planning her and asking others for help to guide her to be her best, and honestly now I am a bit worried (I probably shouldn't say this now because people will be judging her in the upcoming races, but I'm going to do it anyway) about the next two legs of the triple tiara for her, as I had originally put her towards the turf triple she didn't win in those prep races so I switched her to the tiara, so I am considerably worried that her competition with perhaps more wins in undercard or an extra tiara prep win will sweep over her. She has experience with colts in the harder turf triple crown races, but will the judge take that into consideration or just see them as second and third places?

So I agree that things are a bit skewed right now, I wonder if we should have some sort of judging class or exam or something lol to help ensure the old school members and the newcomers are not so radically different it potentially ruins or messes up a season. I am not always the best judge out there either, and I think we all have to remember that if we ask everyone to learn the guidelines we all agree upon and be able to explain their decision with reasonable parameters that we do have to accept this is a pretend game. And yes I believe that sometimes an upset needs to happen, like in Lucky's case, to win over a more HOTY experienced horse every great once in a while so that Lucky has a chance to move up, even slowly. Every horse should be able to win one undercard race here at least every few racing months. Not all have to be a star, but this game is for fun and enjoyment. So I do see inconsistencies that should be evaluated by everyone, like a new set of guidelines or a judging exam or something to help regulate a little more smoothly. Anyway I'll shut up now cuz gosh I tend to go on here don't I? Oopsies.

[Kenren]

The think with Lucky and his HOTYs, to me, is that I think he was overmatched. A good undercard record looks a lot better than a lot of out-of-money finishes. So I probably wouldn't give him extra points for finishing low in those, because he probably should have been running against undercard fields the whole time. But that's just how I judge, I guess. It's all about looking at the competition and putting them against the right fields.

As for the prospects, they really don't matter, if that makes sense? Low placements in prospects mean absolutely nothing once they start racing and vice versa. So getting worked up or upset about how a prospect places just isn't worth it when the slate is wiped totally clean come race day xD As for Cutie, it's not about hating the picture. Since I started here, horses with dressage pictures, etc are always asked to change them or at least it's recommended. Because it's a racing site and when you're judging the race, you want to have a race horse to look at xD That's nothing new, and it's not just your horse. The same thing has happened a number of times before. And it's not just hot-headed monsters that win at all. Santana's Legend is making a splash in the juveniles and she's a sweetheart. I don't have a whole lot of hot-headed monsters at all, and they do fine. But yeah, just to address some of your concerns xD

Edit: But yeah, keep Lucky trucking in the undercards. He'll get it eventually. But keep him out of HOTYs until he's moved up to at least G2 and has a pretty strong undercard record going or he'll probably lose. Like we've said, not every horse is HOTY material - you have to work him up in the undercards to prove that he can do it. Counting on an upset will probably just leave you frustrated. If he gets there, he gets there. If not? Well, I have a lot of horses that aren't HOTY material and that doesn't make them any less great.